Champion of Change - Black Faculty and Staff Association Founder
The Black Faculty and Staff Association (BFSA) came together, as so many advocacy groups do, over lunch and a conversation. Lunch was at the Polo Grill, then a restaurant across from Homewood Field, and the people who had gathered to talk were black senior staff members concerned about the lack of support for people of color at Johns Hopkins. Toni Moore-Duggan, one of the participants, recalled how that lunch and subsequent discussions among the staff members led to their decision in 1995 to establish the BFSA. “After graduating from Johns Hopkins and while working there, it became evident that there was no voice or forum for black people having difficulties here,” said Moore-Duggan, a certified nurse practitioner who worked at the institution for years. At first, Moore-Duggan said, she and the other staff members were not sure if anyone would buy into efforts to create a forum for people of color, but they did. Seventeen years later, the group is not only going strong but has expanded its mission: to help foster a culture of collaboration by promoting and enhancing the identity and professional welfare and growth of faculty, staff and students through collaborations, community service, education, research and cultural activities. The BFSA has also charged itself with being a crucial resource for the continued success of Johns Hopkins through the development and cultivation of relationships with key leaders of the institution. Nicholas Arrindell has served as director of the Johns Hopkins University Office of International Student and Scholar Services since 1991. He holds a doctorate in comparative and international education from the University of Maryland, College Park. Arrindell led a university-wide task force to ensure Johns Hopkins’ compliance with Immigration and Naturalization Service regulations. As a member of the university’s Diversity Leadership Council, he created the video series Who Belongs in America. He also established the Mid-Atlantic Immigration Workshop and participated in the Fulbright International Education Administrators Program, in Germany
Catalyst for campus change—Black Student Union Pioneer
Empowered and inspired by the civil rights movement, students John F. Guess and Bruce Baker presented 12 demands to Johns Hopkins University administration in 1967. They sought such changes as increased black student enrollment and black faculty recruitment, a library section for black authors, and Johns Hopkins-Morgan State mixers.
A year later, Douglas Miles and others joined Guess and Baker to establish a Black Student Union at Johns Hopkins. Although similar groups had already formed at other university campuses, students at Johns Hopkins found their initial requests for official recognition rebuffed. The student council expressed concern that this student union would be seen as hostile and divisive. Continued and mounting pressure from Guess and Baker caused the student council to reconsider its decision and grant official status in 1969. Guess would later be elected the university’s first black student council president.
The Black Student Union remains an influential group at Johns Hopkins-promoting diversity, respect, and understanding. The group also hosts events and lectures, organizes community service projects and works to improve the climate for black students at Johns Hopkins.
Its founders continue to serve as prominent community leaders.
Baker served as the BSU’s first president. After earning undergraduate and graduate degrees from Johns Hopkins, Baker worked as an economist with the Department of Agriculture and completed a law degree at the University of Chicago. He started his legal practice in banking and finance as an in-house attorney with the largest bank in Chicago, moving on to become the first black equity partner at Winston and Strawn LLP and then the first black equity partner at Baker & Mckenzie LLP. He is now a partner at the law firm Hoogendoorn and Talbot LLP.
Cross-country legal leader
Everyone is good at something, but Paula Boggs is one of those people whose interests and abilities seem boundless. She describes herself as a curious person. Perhaps it is that curiosity that landed her jobs in such diverse industries as the military, technology and food services. Or maybe it is her openness to adventure that led her to train as a paratrooper and perform with a band. Her debut CD, A Buddha State of Mind, was released in 2010.
After graduation from Johns Hopkins in 1981, with a bachelor’s degree in international studies, Boggs enrolled at the University of California at Berkeley School of Law. While at Johns Hopkins, she co-founded the women’s cross-country and track and field teams. In doing so, she became the first black person to co-establish an NCAA competition sport at the university.
Boggs recently retired as executive vice president, general counsel and secretary of Starbucks to work on President Barack Obama’s re-election campaign. Under her direction at Starbucks, the company’s legal team played a role in all aspects of the coffee giant’s expansion in the early 2000s. At the time of her retirement, she was involved in the restructuring of the company.
Her path from law school to Starbucks reflects her diverse interests. She began as a U.S. Army officer assigned to the Pentagon before taking a position as a staff attorney position for the White House Iran-Contra Legal Task Force and as an assistant United States attorney.
In 1994, she was tapped to serve a one-year term as staff director for the advisory board on the investigative capability of the Department of Defense (created by the secretary of defense in response to the Tailhook scandal). In 2010, President Obama named Boggs to the White House Council for Community Solutions.
Between government service and Starbucks, Boggs became a partner in the prestigious Preston Gates & Ellis law firm and vice president of legal affairs for Dell.
Boggs is known as much for her community service as her legal prowess. While at Starbucks, she led the legal team in a pro-bono housing justice project for people who had been evicted from their homes, and she worked with company attorneys to draft wills for police, firefighters, and emergency medical technicians. Boggs is a member of the boards of directors of Johns Hopkins University, School of Rock, LLC and the American National Red Cross. She is also on the advisory board of listener-supported radio station KEXP in Seattle. For her many achievements, Johns Hopkins University honored her with a Distinguished Alumnus Award in 2009.
Engineer for diversity
As the first black person to earn a master’s degree in mechanical engineering from Yale University, Gwen Boyd is determined to encourage greater diversity in the field.
Boyd joined the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory as a team engineer in 1980, served as assistant for development programs (coordinating all external programs including research at other universities) and is now executive assistant to the APL chief of staff.
Boyd helped establish the APL Technology Leadership Scholars Program, as well as the ATLAS Summer Internship Program for Historically Black Colleges and Universities, Hispanic-Serving Institutions and Minority Institutions. She was named chair of the Johns Hopkins Institutions Diversity Leadership Council, and in 2010 President Obama appointed her to the board of the Barry Goldwater Scholarship and Excellence in Education Foundation.
Teller of stories and grower of imaginations
One of the signature stories Karen Freeman Burdnell tells is that of her first — and worst — Afro haircut while she was a freshman at Johns Hopkins University. As she walked across campus that day, she believes she ran into just about every other black freshman on campus and that each one of them had something to say about her hair, from offering her hats to cover it up to expressing concern about whether perhaps she had fallen asleep in the barber”s chair.
Telling stories has become a major focus of Burdnell’s life. The daughter of a storyteller, Burdnell first discovered her own talent for storytelling as a teenaged camp counselor. Now telling stories is a part of her work as a children’s librarian for the Enoch Pratt Free Library, and she expects to complete a master’s degree in storytelling from East Tennessee State University by the end of 2012. She is a member of the Griot Circle of Maryland, the National Association of Black Storytellers, and the National Storytelling Network.
“Our imaginations spur and grow through the oral tradition and through telling our own stories,” Burdnell says.
Burdnell’s haircut story reveals the sense of community she felt on the Johns Hopkins campus. She entered the school in the fall of 1970, the first year that Johns Hopkins began accepting female undergraduates, and among the 90 admitted were five black women: Burdnell, two fellow freshmen Shirley Dilsworth and Gail Williams, and two transfer students, Lynn Parker and Barbara Wyche.
While she didn’t live on campus, Burdnell had a rich on-campus life, attending sporting events, working at a candy shop in Levering Hall, and participating in the Black Student Union. Her Baltimore home became a respite for some of the other black students.
As she earned her bachelor’s degree in social and behavioral science at Johns Hopkins, Burdnell learned important lessons including how she could best study and retain information, what her writing strengths are, and how to advocate for herself.
“I knew how to think before I got to Johns Hopkins,” Burdnell concludes, “but the challenging and competitive atmosphere at Johns Hopkins allowed me to test and refine my thinking abilities. They were put to good use there.”
Influential business philosopher
The issues involved with conducting business globally, managing workplace diversity, developing corporate leaders and using business savvy to transform communities and nonprofit organizations fascinate James W. Calvin. He has devoted his professional career to exploring such topics and to inspiring future business leaders to think beyond the bottom line to consider how business is conducted and how it impacts society.
After earning an undergraduate degree from the Rochester Institute of Technology, Calvin pursued graduate studies at New York University, ultimately earning a doctorate (with distinction). A member of the Johns Hopkins Carey Business School faculty since 1996, he serves as associate professor of management and director of the school’s Leadership Development Program for Minority Managers.
Beyond the classroom, Calvin consults with federal agencies, such as the National Aeronautics and Space Administration and General Services Administration, national and local foundations, nonprofits and several national and international business organizations including Fannie Mae, General Electric, Verizon, KPMG, GENCO, PepsiCo, Xerox Quality Services, the Brookings Institution, QVC Inc., the World Bank and DaimlerChrysler
He contributes as a board member of the Academy of Management, the International Society for the Advancement of Management, The Diversity Leadership Council and the Johns Hopkins Black Faculty and Staff Association as well as on the editorial boards of several national and international journals.
Benefactor of mankind
Emmanuel Chambers regarded his work as a waiter at the Baltimore Club as a profession of honor, and his legacy of service continues long after his death. Chambers joined the staff of the Baltimore Club in 1907 and remained with the institution after its merger with the Maryland Club in 1933. He became known not only for his gracious service but also as an on-call personal assistant who could conjure up difficult-to-secure opera and train tickets and could produce forgotten ties and collar buttons. During three decades as a waiter, Chambers lived on his salary and, with the help of a friend, invested his tips, amassing $150,000. After his death in 1945, his will provided for the creation of the Emmanuel Chambers Foundation to use his fortune to benefit the greater Baltimore community. By 1965, the foundation’s holdings were worth more than $500,000, and grants from the foundation had benefited Johns Hopkins Hospital and the Peabody Institute along with other medical facilities and institutions of higher education. Grants to Johns Hopkins Hospital supported assistantships and work with “colored persons,” and grants to Peabody funded scholarships. In honor of his largesse, 20 years after his death, Chambers was honored with a portrait to hang in Johns Hopkins Hospital. At the unveiling, Stuart Olivier, a bank official and then president of the Chambers Foundation said of Chambers, “His life speaks for itself. He was dedicated to the service of mankind while he lived, and his will is just a continuance. He had no education, was no bank president nor president of a university, but during his life he had a fortune larger than the combined membership of the club members he waited on.”
Accomplished litigator and dedicated mentor
By any measure, Robert B. Clayton was a model Johns Hopkins University student. A member of the Black Student Union, Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity, and four-year member of the varsity basketball team, including two years as captain, he was as passionate about his extracurricular activities as he was about his academic pursuits. From his first days on campus, Clayton noticed the lack of diversity. The group of 35 African Americans who matriculated along with him made the transition to the mostly white Hopkins manageable – even memorable. Upon his graduation in 1984, Clayton went on to earn a law degree from the University of Michigan in 1987, and start a successful family law and civil litigation career in Los Angeles where he commutes from the home he shares in Maryland with his wife, Dr. Janine Clayton, an ophthalmologist, and fellow Hopkins graduate.
Clayton’s accomplishments are many. Through his law practice, he has handled an extensive portfolio of family law cases in his representation of high-profile clients, including a number of well-known celebrities and professional athletes. In 1994, he was voted “Lawyer of the Year” by Freedom Magazine, a southern California publication serving Los Angeles’ African American community. He is a longtime member of the Pasadena Tournament of Roses Association, which produces the annual Rose Parade and Rose Bowl Game. While building his professional career, Clayton has remained active in his alma mater, serving on the National Alumni Schools Committee the Second Decade Society, and the Alumni Council Executive Committee. He has provided insights on key Hopkins strategic initiatives such as the formation of the Center for African Studies.
For all of his accomplishments, it is his service to his alma mater, especially to the university’s African American students and alumni that holds a special place in his heart. He is particularly proud of his work with the Johns Hopkins Society of Black Alumni (SOBA) with which he served as one of its inaugural committee members in 1994. He went on to serve as its vice president and is now the group’s longest serving president, having taken on the role in 2002. During this time, he oversaw the installation of the inaugural SOBA Presidential Professor, the naming of the first SOBA scholarship recipient. He also helped form the Men of Color Hopkins Alliance (MOCHA), a mentoring program for male students of color at Hopkins. He often tells those young men and other students of color that they can do it all at Hopkins and not be excluded based on their race. “I don’t want the students who come after me to have a bad experience.”
Physician/scientist and dedicated mentor
A self-described nerd, Janine Austin Clayton arrived at Johns Hopkins University as a freshman knowing exactly what she wanted to get out of her education at the school. She dove into her coursework and balanced her academic pursuits with dance classes at the Peabody Institute, and trips to nearby museums. Clayton was aware that she was one of a small number of African American students on campus, but she was not fixated on it. Her focus was on a degree, and a career in medicine and science. Thoughts of paving the way for other blacks at Hopkins would come later. She volunteered at Johns Hopkins Hospital in the neonatal unit, she worked for the psychology department and she pledged Alpha Kappa Alpha sorority.
As a student studying natural sciences, she valued the time she spent conducting research and working in labs – opportunities not usually afforded undergraduate students on many college campuses. That research experience combined with the policy side of medicine would serve her well in her career as a physician/scientist, and top government health official. Clayton, a board certified ophthalmologist, and director of the Office of Women’s Health at the National Institutes of Health, is an authority on eye diseases and an advocate for the inclusion of female animals and cells in preclinical research design. Her specialties include sex and gender in health and disease, global women’s health, public health and women’s eye health.
Clayton graduated from Hopkins in 1984, and from Howard University College of Medicine in 1989. She completed her residency at the Medical College of Virginia in 1993, followed by
fellowships with the Johns Hopkins University Wilmer Eye Institute and the National Eye Institute. An authority on autoimmune ocular diseases, and the role of sex and gender in health and disease, she has authored more than 80 scientific publications, journals and book chapters.
Along with her husband, Robert B. Clayton, a successful attorney who also graduated from Hopkins in 1984, Janine Clayton has remained close to her alma mater, serving on the Alumni Council and with the Society of Black Alumni (SOBA), and participating in the mentoring, recruitment and enhancement of the black student experience on campus.
Giving back to the university is important to Clayton. Equally important is the chance to be a role model to young African American students at Hopkins – the students who would follow her and experience the same academic rigor and social ups and downs that she faced as a black undergrad at JHU. “We want to see them do well and to let them know they don’t have to be one way at Hopkins.”
In Johns Hopkins University, Clayton found an environment where she could nurture her desire to become a doctor while indulging her creative side. In Clayton, the university produced a bright and thoughtful young woman dedicated to both her career, and the African American students who would come after her.
Dragon-slaying music maker
The idea that the arts are integral to humanity shaped Eileen Cline’s life and her tenure as the dean of the Peabody Conservatory. “So many children, by the time they are 5 or 6 years old, think that the arts are only about being able to draw and sing at a level possible only for a ‘chosen’ few,” she has said. “I would like to do whatever I can to slay those dragons.”
An accomplished pianist, folk dancer and singer, Cline, now retired, dedicated her career to expanding arts opportunities for others. She taught music at the elementary, high school and university levels, owned a piano studio, founded the Boulder Children’s Choir and served as executive director of the Neighborhood Music School in New Haven, Connecticut.
In 1983, Cline became the first black to be appointed dean of the Peabody Conservatory and the only woman dean, at that time, of a major American conservatory of music. Cline’s dedication to inclusiveness enriched and expanded the Peabody community.
When her tenure ended in 1995, Cline continued to serve Johns Hopkins for four additional years as a senior university fellow in arts policy at the Institute for Policy Studies, and to influence music education policy through her membership on the boards for the National Endowment for the Arts and the American Symphony Orchestra League.
Genius for medical equity
Lisa Cooper asks questions and finds answers that cause the medical community to refine its practices. From what she refers to as her “exemplary professional home” at Johns Hopkins, Cooper, an internist, epidemiologist and professor in the Division of General Internal Medicine, conducts landmark studies on racial and ethnic disparities in disease prevalence and risk and care delivery. In one study, she and her colleagues found that African-American patients treated by African-American physicians are more assertive and involved in their own care than those treated by white physicians. Another study showed that cultural and social factors strongly influence whether and where people seek help for mental illness.
In recognition of her promise, The John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation awarded her a $500,000 unrestricted “genius grant” in 2007. She also has a Mid-Career Investigator Award for Patient-Oriented Research in Cardiovascular Health Disparities from the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute and is the principal investigator for the Johns Hopkins Center to Eliminate Cardiovascular Health Disparities.
According to Myron E. Weisfeldt, chairman of the Johns Hopkins Department of Medicine, Cooper’s work is essential as the medical community strives to deliver high-quality care to an increasingly diverse patient population. “The best physicians are going to be those who understand the purpose and the substance of Lisa Cooper’s scholarship and her extraordinary understanding of clinical care,” he said. “There’s no question that her work will inspire generations to come of doctors and doctors-in-training.”
While Miriam DeCosta–Willis experienced the challenges of “being a black woman in a white man‘s world,” her life story demonstrates her ability to transcend those challenges. The child of two college professors, she grew up in the South but moved north in 1950 to help integrate Westover School in Connecticut. She describes her two years there as painful, yet she left the school with high honors.
After earning a bachelor‘s degree from Wellesley College she earned both her maste‘s degree and in 1967, she earned a doctoral degree at Johns Hopkins. After obtaining her degree, DeCosta–Willis was appointed the first black faculty member at Memphis State University.
Throughout her 40-year career in education, DeCosta-Willis, a Spanish language and African-American studies scholar, held administrative and faculty posts at Howard University, George Mason University and University of Maryland, Baltimore County.
Now retired, she remains a lifelong civil rights activist and writer. In addition to serving as co-founder of the Memphis Black Writers’ Workshop, she has published several books.
Raised by a widowed mother facing health issues, Shirley Dilsworth moved from New Jersey to Baltimore as a young girl. As she was about to graduate from Western High School, she was invited to apply to Johns Hopkins and was admitted. It was the fall of 1970, the first year that Johns Hopkins began accepting female undergraduates, and among the 90 admitted were five black women: Dilsworth, two fellow freshmen, Karen Freeman Burdnell and Gail Williams, and two transfer students, Lynn Parker and Barbara Wyche.
A focused student, Dilsworth lived at home and worked part time at the Enoch Pratt Free Library throughout her college years. She remembered a sixth-grade teacher telling her that she could not achieve her dream of becoming a lawyer. Instead of discouraging her, such comments fueled her determination to succeed.
Following her graduation from Johns Hopkins, Dilsworth earned two law degrees and worked for many prestigious companies. She is currently the divisional vice president of human resources for Nordstrom’s Credit Division and Corporate Center and an active community leader.
An Operatic Artist for All Ages
Devonna Rowe has traveled the world as an opera singer and arts educator, bringing her voice to theaters and opera houses in such places as Europe, Africa and Asia. A classically trained singer with an extensive range, her operatic roles include the Countess in Mozart’s “The Marriage of Figaro,” Clara in Gershwin’s “Porgy and Bess,” and La Zia Principessa in Puccini’s “Suor Angelica.”
However, it’s her role as voice instructor to students of all ages at Johns Hopkins Peabody Preparatory that Rowe counts among her proudest roles. “At Peabody, it’s about working with people at all levels to help them not only develop their vocal skills but their musical skills as well.” It’s also about giving back in recognition of those who were instrumental in her development as an artist and music educator.
A native of Wilson, N.C., Rowe grew up singing in church where she sang her first solo at the age of 3. During high school, she studied and performed in Los Angeles, California. She went on to receive an undergraduate degree in music education and a masters and doctorate in vocal performance. Along the way, Rowe received a music fellowship from opera singer Leontyne Price and began a teaching career that would span more than three decades and include stints at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Aspen Music School, Vanderbilt University, and Morgan State University.
Rowe cites her former students who have earned graduate degrees in voice from Yale University, the Julliard School of Music and New York University as success stories. These students have gone on to professional careers performing with the Washington Opera, the Opera Theatre of Saint Louis as well as Off Broadway.
Rowe’s career extends beyond teaching voice. In addition to being on Peabody Prep’s faculty for the past 13 years, she is a member of the Black Faculty and Staff Association. A specialist in Integrated Arts Education, she works in Baltimore and throughout Maryland with students in grades K-12 teaching youngsters about African American history through language arts, music, dance and improvisation.
Working as a consultant for the John F. Kennedy Center, Rowe has helped to create programs that have had an impact on arts education in the United States. Most recently she developed a summer program for youth at the Hosanna School Museum, a historic site that was the first public school for African Americans in Harford County Maryland.
The year was 1970. Erich March was a freshman at Johns Hopkins. The country was nearing the end of the Vietnam War. The university had just begun to admit women. Change was all around. Still, March was struck by the lack of diversity at the college he chose to attend. Despite all the changes underway around the nation, the institution he chose to further his education seemed back then to be stuck in time.
March was accustomed to being around African Americans as a native of Baltimore. His family owns the prominent March Funeral Homes, a mainstay of the city’s black community for more than 50 years. Suddenly, he was in a “lily white” environment. As March tells it, there weren’t many black undergraduates and even fewer graduate students at JHU. He can’t recall seeing any black faculty either. But March didn’t let that hold him back. He was there to get his education, which he would use to help run his family’s business and give back to the community. When he wasn’t in class or studying, March hung out with the few black students on campus or he worked with his father in the funeral home.
After graduating from JHU in 1974 with a degree in behavioral science, March returned home to help his father run the family business. It was during this time that his civic mind kicked in. With the riots following the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. over, March wanted to help the city return to normal. One way he and his family did that was to keep the family’s anchor funeral home on East North Avenue, a section of the city that was ravaged by the riots. Other businesses had left the area or the city in general, but the March family insisted on staying and even expanding. Today, the company operates seven funeral homes – three in Baltimore, one each in the District of Columbia, Suitland and Laurel, and one in Richmond, Virginia. The family also operates King Memorial Park Cemetery in Randallstown, which March says is the largest African American cemetery on the East Coast. March is the president of the cemetery.
Several years ago, March and his then wife, Michele Speaks-March, opened Apples and Oranges Fresh Market on the corner of North Avenue and Broadway as a way of providing healthy food to underserved communities in the city. March, the vice president and chief operating officer of the family business, said through the funeral homes, he sees the toll that unhealthy diets were taking on the black community. “Potato chips and soda. I see obesity and other diseases. I see it in my embalming room.” Sadly, the store didn’t make it. Last year, it closed its doors. “We couldn’t crack the addiction to fried food and carryout. Grease and salt.”
March, who is also an accomplished artist, and his family, are still active in the community. They proudly give scholarships to the two historically black secondary schools in the city – Paul Laurence Dunbar and Frederick Douglass high schools. And they plan to keep their anchor funeral home on East North Avenue where March sees it as part of the revitalization of the historic corridor. “This is my home. How can I not be involved?”
A Brilliant Mind
Ralph Etienne-Cummings developed his passion for math and science as a young boy growing up in his native Seychelles, an archipelago of islands northeast of Africa, and in England where he lived for long periods of his youth with his grandmother. The product of teenage parents, including a mother who stressed education, Etienne-Cummings turned out to be a bright child with a knack for fixing things and figuring out problems. In the U.K., he attended a strict Benedictine school where he rose to be one of the top students in his class and excelled as an athlete.
The year before he graduated from high school, Etienne-Cummings moved with his family to New Orleans where he continued on a path that would eventually lead him to Johns Hopkins University. Here, he is a professor of electrical and computer engineering in the Whiting School of Engineering – one of only a few black faculty in the school. Etienne-Cummings landed at Hopkins by way of Lincoln University near Philadelphia where he majored in physics and took an interest in electronics. He went on to the University of Pennsylvania where he earned his master’s and doctoral degrees in electrical engineering.
While in undergraduate school, Etienne-Cummings started thinking about research as a career. His focus would be where biology and electronics meet. One area where Etienne-Cummings has made a name for himself at JHU and among engineers, and federal funding agencies, is with his years-long quest to develop a spinal implant that will help people paralyzed from the waist down regain movement and sensation. His research interests also include systems and algorithms for biologically inspired and low-power processing, biomorphic robots, applied neuroscience, neural prosthetics, and computer integrated surgical systems and technologies. He holds seven patents and has mentored over thirty-five students at the graduate level.
At Hopkins, Etienne-Cummings has sponsored a number of diversity and mentoring programs, including serving as co-chair of the Diversity Committee, and as a mentor of the Whiting School’s Robotics Club. Etienne-Cummings has also served as a consulting engineer for several technology firms, including Nova Sensors, Inc., and Panasonic N. American & Corporation.
Aside from his science, Etienne-Cummings feels strongly about bringing more people of color, particularly African Americans, into the engineering fold. He is also among those at Johns Hopkins who have been asked by university leadership to help recruit black faculty to JHU, and to the Whiting School. “It’s super important,” he said. “In engineering and the university in general we have to do better. Having a diverse faculty matters. You have to have role models. Otherwise, how do you convince yourself that you are good enough to be in places like a Hopkins or a Stanford?”